Brucehankins Probably won't change your current routine much.
When you say, "your current routine," are you referring to me or to @tomscharbach ? We've both described our current routines.
Solus on Laptop, External Monitor, Plugged & Unplugged
WetGeek My question would be, "what's considered a charge cycle." If your unplugged laptop is at 90%, and you plug it in long enough for it to reach 100%, does that count as a charge cycle? If you unplug it and use it until it quits, and then charge it up to 100%, that's more like what I think of as a charge cycle.
I don't think that it is a precise measurement, but this explanation is as good as any:
"_A battery cycle simply refers to one full drain of a battery's charge, from 100 to zero percent. This doesn't have to happen all at once. For example, if your laptop battery drains from 100 percent to 50 percent, then you charge it back up to 100 percent and let it drop to 50 percent again, that counts as one cycle.
Battery cycle count, then, is the number of times that your battery has gone through a cycle. The lower your laptop's battery cycle count, the "healthier" its battery is. A healthy battery will hold close to its factory-maximum charge, compared to one that's been heavily used._"
As I understand it, from this and other similar explanations, a "battery cycle" occurs every time a battery is charged from drained to fully charged. 0>100 counts as one battery cycle, 50>100 counts as one half a battery cycle, 25>100 counts as three quarters of a battery cycle, and so on:
"Essentially, a charge cycle equals one full discharge down to 0% and then a recharge back up to 100%. A discharge down to 50% and then back to 100% would equal half a cycle. Over time, each charge cycle decreases a battery’s capacity from its design specifications, meaning that the fewer times you drain it, the longer the battery lasts — all other things being equal."
When plugged in a battery continues to drain, slowly but surely, because the battery needs a certain amount of energy to maintain itself. That's why some manufacturers set up a laptop so the battery won't charge until it is down to 90%. The theory is that a periodic 10% charge (10 count as a battery cycle) builds battery cycle count more slowly than having the battery charge from 99% to 100% frequently. My Latitudes do that using Windows 11, but not using Solus.
The reason that battery cycles are important is that each battery cycle uses chemical reactions and slowly lose the ability to fully charge. If you look at a battery that is several years old, it won't charge to full battery capacity. As an example, the battery in my Latitude 7390 (now two years and 6 months old, give or take) has about 85% capacity -- designed for 60AH, it now can charge only to 49AH.
WetGeek Writing that made me curious to check its condition again:
And now, coming to you from the Precision. You know how old this is -- probably about 10 years, and it's still aliive and kicking.
Like all my laptops, since I've had it, it's been used on A/C 24/7. I have no idea what condition the battery was in when it first came to me -- I don't remember checking it. This one hasn't been plugged in for a while, which is why it's not at 100%.
Tom, I suspect your laptop batteries will last a LOT longer than a year. Have you ever worn one out?
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WetGeek Tom, I suspect your laptop batteries will last a LOT longer than a year. Have you ever worn one out?
Of course I have. I've been using laptops for work and personal use since the late 1980's. I've replaced at least a dozen batteries in that time frame.
Battery technology has improved a lot over the years, but batteries wear out with use and attendant drain/charge cycles. Simple chemistry.
WetGeek Like all my laptops, since I've had it, it's been used on A/C 24/7.
My guess is that the reason you get better battery life than I do is that your laptops are used as desktops -- you don't use the battery at all except rarely. If a battery is not used, it doesn't wear out as quickly.
It doesn't work that way for me. I use laptops as laptops.
Until today, the Latitude 7390 was plugged in only for charging and for BIOS upgrades, as are all my laptops. Otherwise it ran on battery, day after day. It doesn't surprise me that the battery is at 85% of design capacity after a couple years of use.
My Latitude 7520, bought in February, has a design capacity of 62 mWh and a current full charge capacity of 60 mWh. It gets used about an hour a day and charged twice a week, so I expect the battery to lose capacity slowly until I start using it more. My old Latitude 7280 battery had just under 60% of design capacity when I gave it to my grandson, so I replaced the battery before I gave it to him. My Inspiron 3180, bought in 2017, has about 54% of design capacity of this point. Not a problem, because I use it once a day, for about 35 minutes, to play a game, and that is all I use it for.
I keep my computers for about 6 iCore generations before I replace them. Roughly six years. In NASCAR the saying is "if you ain't rubbing, you ain't racing", and the laptop equivalent is "If you ain't wearing out a battery every few years, you ain't using it." You use a laptop, but it is a desktop with a laptop form factor, given the use pattern you describe.
That's just the way it is. Use it and lose it.
tomscharbach My guess is that the reason you get better battery life than I do is that your laptops are used as desktops -- you don't use the battery at all except rarely. If a battery is not used, it doesn't wear out as quickly.
It doesn't work that way for me. I use laptops as laptops.
That must be the difference.
tomscharbach I find your rationales helpful, I thought a charge cycle by definition was fully drained to fully charged as well. Unless 'cycle' def. is exclusive to electric razors (et al) and the like. You never listed a source for your info I couldn't tell if they were talking laptops or all electronics or some electronics...my particular phone recommends draining it before recharging....for what I can only imagine is battery life sake.
WetGeek That must be the difference.
This remains to be seen. Can constant recharging be better in the long run for batteries? Life by a thousand paper cuts? My electrician's daughter uses hers as a desktop computer as well, but plugs it in when she's not at home....ergo we've never had to test/push battery limit beyond the likely 3 hours.
brent You never listed a source for your info I couldn't tell if they were talking laptops or all electronics or some electronics..
I should have sourced, but both articles were specifically about laptop batteries.
tomscharbach interesting and thanks.
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I worked with batteries for 25 years in my work Its 500 charge cycles
Ok so whats a charge cycle anytime you charge a battery if lets say at 80% and you charge it thats a charge cycle
if its at 10% thats a charge cycle does not matter what the current capacity is at.
(Every battery degrades after a charge cycle)
With the older nicad batteries you wanted to drain them low and charge fully as the memory effect would cause capacity
issues as the battery got older.
With Lithium batteries there is no memory effect but these batteries are temp sensitive to cold and usually the chargers will not charge them.
They will last a long time if kept at normal temps try not to plug a cold laptop into charger if using lithium
(Its good to charge any battery at room temp) (every battery loses capacity at temp extremes)
I havent kept up on lithium charging as the computer chip inside laptop batteries controls the charging so its mostly out of our control if it isnt done right poof..lol
So with lithium and nicads really all one needs worry about is charge cycles dont over cycle.
Some where in a box I got my old battery analyzer it was perty interesting over the years the batteries I ran through it
I could tell exactly how the person was charging his batteries yes and most were screwed up..lol
(Never drain a battery to reverse polarity it damages them)
Oh lithium and nicads two different beasts they dont act the same and just talking about basic batteries not how
the computers handle charging seems to big variation in that from oems.
(Just some basic info in a Nutshell)
WetGeek Tom, sorry thought it was contextual.
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Brucehankins I'd say grab a dock, have it all set up, and plug the pass through power into an outlet when needed. Probably won't change your current routine much.
Probably not, but I'm wondering whether I need a dock.
When plugged in, the laptop screen is off (on power, closing lid turns off the laptop screen) and the HDMI monitor is self-powered. I'm not sure what the tradeoff in power consumption is between having the laptop display off and the HDMI port powered and in use, but I'm guessing that the laptop uses less power on the HDMI port than it does on the display.
The external keyboard (USB-A port), I know, uses power, because it is a mechanical keyboard that is backlit. How significant that power level might be I don't know, but I'm guessing that plugged in, the laptop has more than enough power to handle it without a dock.
The only other thing plugged in (both on external power and on battery power) is a nano USB-A transceiver for the mouse, which is wifi and self-powered. The transceiver is always in the computer, powered or battery, and isn't going into a dock.
I've got a USB-C port left over for data transfer if I need it.
What do you think, given the actual use? I don't see what I gain by using a dock.
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You can remove the battery while using as desktop replacement and not worry about cycle degradation.
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[deleted] You can remove the battery while using as desktop replacement and not worry about cycle degradation.
Takes me back to the day when many laptops had "swappable" batteries, easily removeable. Of course, laptop batteries had 1.5 > 2 hours (if you were lucky) of use available back then, so serious workers carried spare or two to get through the day. Saved my bacon a few times.
Now, not so much. A few "rugged" laptops and gaming laptops have swapable batteries, but for the most part, batteries aren't easily removable these days.
tomscharbach the biggest gain of a dock is it all stays plugged in when you use it as a laptop. You don't have to take an extra 5 seconds to unplug a charger, , RJ45, HDMI, and x number of USB cables. Pull the USB-C from the dock, take the laptop away, and continue where ever you want.
That's the only reason I use the dock. Easy setup and teardown. Some of the other Ultrabooks that take a more MacBook approach, a dock is a must. You get 1 or 2 USB-C or Thunderbolt ports at best.
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Brucehankins Pull the USB-C from the dock, take the laptop away, and continue where ever you want.
Thanks. I hadn't thought of a dock in this way. I'm going to have to check to see if my USB-C supports full HDMI passthrough. The laptop is from 2018 and has a separate HDMI port, so it might not. You said you use Anker, which is top of the line. I might go with something lower down the food chain.
tldr: check your bios for a setting
I read a good article on battery life a year or 2 back and my takeaway is: the first and last 15 to 20 percent carry a disproportional weight in a battery's lifecycle. It is not 1 to 1. Don't charge above 85% or drain below 15% if you want maximum battery lifespan.
My Lenovo laptop isn't currently here with me right now so from memory, there's a bios setting for a desktop usage scenario that doesn't charge above 80%.
Axios I worked with batteries for 25 years in my work Its 500 charge cycles
Ok so whats a charge cycle anytime you charge a battery if lets say at 80% and you charge it thats a charge cycle
if its at 10% thats a charge cycle does not matter what the current capacity is at.
wow response. flip side to the official definition is any time you charge constitutes a charge cycle, which I think is the definition most people know it as.
Axios So with lithium and nicads really all one needs worry about is charge cycles dont over cycle.
what does overcycle mean? charging with 95% juice left?
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brent Charging the battery when it doesnt need it.
the lower you run then charge longer it will last.
Up to around the 500 charge discharge cycles (Just a note all this depends greatly on the quality of the battery
Oem batteries the best but also cost more)
Its kinda like this oh I just charged it alittle bit should not cause any problems it causes wear on the battery.
I run around house with my 2015 mac pro use it till its sometimes 10% then charge last I looked it was around 93% life
dont remember the charge cycle count may look at it late and see. (7 years)
Oh I charge to 99-100% all the time.
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I will have to digest this chart abit but really what they are doing is not over charging and under charging
I do not really agree with it in a sense.
But I do know letting it drop to low to cell reversal is bad for the battery if it doesnt damage beyond use.
(cell damage does not start until +0v to -0v on the battery)
It appears to me you would want use that mode if you had it plugged in as desktop all the time
(Thats where alot of bad batteries come from)
If it was me if I was using it as laptop I would turn that feature off.
(As the computer chip charging battery is not going overcharge it)
In my opinion letting battery get to low and temp extremes are way more dangerous than letting it charge to 100%
I think alot of it has to do with charge capacity and temp of battery (more charge and more heat damages battery)
So thats why the charge limit
Just some things in life they are what they are like putting gas in our cars sooner or later we wear out the motor..lol
same with batteries we juice them enuf they wear out..
( enuf about this subject from me done rambling..lol)