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  • Solus on Laptop, External Monitor, Plugged & Unplugged

brent Is on-again/off-again charging not your thing? I'm not following the charge cycles part ...

What I'm thinking about is this: Every battery has a fixed number of charge cycles available over its lifetime. Most batteries are good for about 300 charge cycles.

When I used the laptop only as a laptop, I would charge it once or twice a week (the battery is good for 8-10 hours of use, and covered the two days a week I used it at the railrod) so it would take me just about forever to hit 300 charge cycles. Plugged in, though, the battery seems to stay at 100% charge, and, when if the battery is lower than that (because it has been used not plugged in), the charge cycle starts the moment it is plugged in and charges the battery to 100%. It seems to me that the computer is likely to run through more charge cycles in that scenario.

In Windows, Dell has "adaptive" settings that adapt charging to use patterns -- if I were using Windows on this laptop under the scenario I am describing, with adaptive settings, the battery would not charge when I plugged it in unless the battery was less than 50%, and it would charge only to 90%, unless I took steps to override the "adaptive" setting. Not so in Linux, as far as I can figure out.

I realize, now that I look at what I'm writing, that my concern is probably stupid. A replacement 60AH battery for this computer (a Latitude 7390) costs under $100, even for a Dell OEM, and about $60 for a non-OEM replacement. If I have to change the battery every year or so, that's not a big deal.

      tomscharbach Every battery has a fixed number of charge cycles available over its lifetime. Most batteries are good for about 300 charge cycles.

      When I used the laptop only as a laptop, I would charge it once or twice a week (the battery is good for 8-10 hours of use) so it would take just about forever to hit 300 charge cycles. Plugged in, though, the battery seems to stay at 100% charge, and, when if the battery is lower than that (because it has been used not plugged in), the charge cycle starts the moment it is plugged in and charges the battery to 100%. It seems to me that the computer is likely to run through more charge cycles in that scenario.

      I don't think your concern is stupid at all (thanks for explaining). I think strategically and practical, with value in mind, just like you do, about nearly everything I own. I am eager to hear someone contribute about the charging cycle/longevity. Would be good to know.
      edit: add word

        WetGeek I turn on the Precision only to update it, and then turn it off, as currently I have no other use for it. If it eventually won't turn back on, I take that as a clue that it needs to be recharged.

        No sh*t, Sherlock 🤣

          tomscharbach Every battery has a fixed number of charge cycles available over its lifetime. Most batteries are good for about 300 charge cycles.

          My question would be, "what's considered a charge cycle." If your unplugged laptop is at 90%, and you plug it in long enough for it to reach 100%, does that count as a charge cycle? If you unplug it and use it until it quits, and then charge it up to 100%, that's more like what I think of as a charge cycle. And if I operate it on A/C (like a desktop/UPS combination), I doubt if it ever needs to charge the battery.

          It's like putting a trickle charger on the battery in a motorcycle that you don't ride in the winter. It keeps the battery topped off so it will start in the spring, but there's circuitry to prevent it from overcharging. I hadn't thought of just removing the battery and setting it aside, but that's an interesing idea, too.

          When I bought this refurbished Latitude, the online description said that would "look and work like new, blah, bhah, blah ... and have at least 80% battery life remaining." It's several years old, and it's remaining battery life turned out to be 95%. I figure I'll probably replace it with a younger laptop before I ever need to worry about replacing the battery.

              WetGeek It's several years old, and it's remaining battery life turned out to be 95%.

              Writing that made me curious to check its condition again:

              I expected its condition to be a little lower now, especially if keeping it plugged in 24/7 caused any harm, but as you can see it's unchanged since I got it in mid-April. Obviously it's not going to need a new battery after a year.

                  So I do this with my work laptop daily and my personal from time to time. I've got a little Anker docking station with another charger plugged to it for power transfer and all my peripherals plugged into that. Work Dell, I've seen no effects on battery life so far. Still get 10ish hours on battery after 9+ months of this routine. My personal Lenovo has a 4 hour max battery life on Windows and usually lasts about 2.8-3.5 hours on Solus with TLP, so a charger goes everywhere with me for it. I'd say grab a dock, have it all set up, and plug the pass through power into an outlet when needed. Probably won't change your current routine much.

                    Brucehankins Probably won't change your current routine much.

                    When you say, "your current routine," are you referring to me or to @tomscharbach ? We've both described our current routines.

                        WetGeek My question would be, "what's considered a charge cycle." If your unplugged laptop is at 90%, and you plug it in long enough for it to reach 100%, does that count as a charge cycle? If you unplug it and use it until it quits, and then charge it up to 100%, that's more like what I think of as a charge cycle.

                        I don't think that it is a precise measurement, but this explanation is as good as any:

                        "_A battery cycle simply refers to one full drain of a battery's charge, from 100 to zero percent. This doesn't have to happen all at once. For example, if your laptop battery drains from 100 percent to 50 percent, then you charge it back up to 100 percent and let it drop to 50 percent again, that counts as one cycle.

                        Battery cycle count, then, is the number of times that your battery has gone through a cycle. The lower your laptop's battery cycle count, the "healthier" its battery is. A healthy battery will hold close to its factory-maximum charge, compared to one that's been heavily used._"

                        As I understand it, from this and other similar explanations, a "battery cycle" occurs every time a battery is charged from drained to fully charged. 0>100 counts as one battery cycle, 50>100 counts as one half a battery cycle, 25>100 counts as three quarters of a battery cycle, and so on:

                        "Essentially, a charge cycle equals one full discharge down to 0% and then a recharge back up to 100%. A discharge down to 50% and then back to 100% would equal half a cycle. Over time, each charge cycle decreases a battery’s capacity from its design specifications, meaning that the fewer times you drain it, the longer the battery lasts — all other things being equal."

                        When plugged in a battery continues to drain, slowly but surely, because the battery needs a certain amount of energy to maintain itself. That's why some manufacturers set up a laptop so the battery won't charge until it is down to 90%. The theory is that a periodic 10% charge (10 count as a battery cycle) builds battery cycle count more slowly than having the battery charge from 99% to 100% frequently. My Latitudes do that using Windows 11, but not using Solus.

                        The reason that battery cycles are important is that each battery cycle uses chemical reactions and slowly lose the ability to fully charge. If you look at a battery that is several years old, it won't charge to full battery capacity. As an example, the battery in my Latitude 7390 (now two years and 6 months old, give or take) has about 85% capacity -- designed for 60AH, it now can charge only to 49AH.

                            WetGeek Writing that made me curious to check its condition again:

                            And now, coming to you from the Precision. You know how old this is -- probably about 10 years, and it's still aliive and kicking.

                            Like all my laptops, since I've had it, it's been used on A/C 24/7. I have no idea what condition the battery was in when it first came to me -- I don't remember checking it. This one hasn't been plugged in for a while, which is why it's not at 100%.

                            Tom, I suspect your laptop batteries will last a LOT longer than a year. Have you ever worn one out?

                                WetGeek Tom, I suspect your laptop batteries will last a LOT longer than a year. Have you ever worn one out?

                                Of course I have. I've been using laptops for work and personal use since the late 1980's. I've replaced at least a dozen batteries in that time frame.

                                Battery technology has improved a lot over the years, but batteries wear out with use and attendant drain/charge cycles. Simple chemistry.

                                WetGeek Like all my laptops, since I've had it, it's been used on A/C 24/7.

                                My guess is that the reason you get better battery life than I do is that your laptops are used as desktops -- you don't use the battery at all except rarely. If a battery is not used, it doesn't wear out as quickly.

                                It doesn't work that way for me. I use laptops as laptops.

                                Until today, the Latitude 7390 was plugged in only for charging and for BIOS upgrades, as are all my laptops. Otherwise it ran on battery, day after day. It doesn't surprise me that the battery is at 85% of design capacity after a couple years of use.

                                My Latitude 7520, bought in February, has a design capacity of 62 mWh and a current full charge capacity of 60 mWh. It gets used about an hour a day and charged twice a week, so I expect the battery to lose capacity slowly until I start using it more. My old Latitude 7280 battery had just under 60% of design capacity when I gave it to my grandson, so I replaced the battery before I gave it to him. My Inspiron 3180, bought in 2017, has about 54% of design capacity of this point. Not a problem, because I use it once a day, for about 35 minutes, to play a game, and that is all I use it for.

                                I keep my computers for about 6 iCore generations before I replace them. Roughly six years. In NASCAR the saying is "if you ain't rubbing, you ain't racing", and the laptop equivalent is "If you ain't wearing out a battery every few years, you ain't using it." You use a laptop, but it is a desktop with a laptop form factor, given the use pattern you describe.

                                That's just the way it is. Use it and lose it.

                                      tomscharbach My guess is that the reason you get better battery life than I do is that your laptops are used as desktops -- you don't use the battery at all except rarely. If a battery is not used, it doesn't wear out as quickly.

                                      It doesn't work that way for me. I use laptops as laptops.

                                      That must be the difference.

                                          tomscharbach I find your rationales helpful, I thought a charge cycle by definition was fully drained to fully charged as well. Unless 'cycle' def. is exclusive to electric razors (et al) and the like. You never listed a source for your info I couldn't tell if they were talking laptops or all electronics or some electronics...my particular phone recommends draining it before recharging....for what I can only imagine is battery life sake.

                                          WetGeek That must be the difference.

                                          This remains to be seen. Can constant recharging be better in the long run for batteries? Life by a thousand paper cuts? My electrician's daughter uses hers as a desktop computer as well, but plugs it in when she's not at home....ergo we've never had to test/push battery limit beyond the likely 3 hours.

                                                brent You never listed a source for your info I couldn't tell if they were talking laptops or all electronics or some electronics..

                                                I should have sourced, but both articles were specifically about laptop batteries.

                                                    I worked with batteries for 25 years in my work Its 500 charge cycles
                                                    Ok so whats a charge cycle anytime you charge a battery if lets say at 80% and you charge it thats a charge cycle
                                                    if its at 10% thats a charge cycle does not matter what the current capacity is at.
                                                    (Every battery degrades after a charge cycle)

                                                    With the older nicad batteries you wanted to drain them low and charge fully as the memory effect would cause capacity
                                                    issues as the battery got older.

                                                    With Lithium batteries there is no memory effect but these batteries are temp sensitive to cold and usually the chargers will not charge them.
                                                    They will last a long time if kept at normal temps try not to plug a cold laptop into charger if using lithium
                                                    (Its good to charge any battery at room temp) (every battery loses capacity at temp extremes)
                                                    I havent kept up on lithium charging as the computer chip inside laptop batteries controls the charging so its mostly out of our control if it isnt done right poof..lol
                                                    So with lithium and nicads really all one needs worry about is charge cycles dont over cycle.

                                                    Some where in a box I got my old battery analyzer it was perty interesting over the years the batteries I ran through it
                                                    I could tell exactly how the person was charging his batteries yes and most were screwed up..lol
                                                    (Never drain a battery to reverse polarity it damages them)

                                                    Oh lithium and nicads two different beasts they dont act the same and just talking about basic batteries not how
                                                    the computers handle charging seems to big variation in that from oems.
                                                    (Just some basic info in a Nutshell)

                                                      Brucehankins I'd say grab a dock, have it all set up, and plug the pass through power into an outlet when needed. Probably won't change your current routine much.

                                                      Probably not, but I'm wondering whether I need a dock.

                                                      When plugged in, the laptop screen is off (on power, closing lid turns off the laptop screen) and the HDMI monitor is self-powered. I'm not sure what the tradeoff in power consumption is between having the laptop display off and the HDMI port powered and in use, but I'm guessing that the laptop uses less power on the HDMI port than it does on the display.

                                                      The external keyboard (USB-A port), I know, uses power, because it is a mechanical keyboard that is backlit. How significant that power level might be I don't know, but I'm guessing that plugged in, the laptop has more than enough power to handle it without a dock.

                                                      The only other thing plugged in (both on external power and on battery power) is a nano USB-A transceiver for the mouse, which is wifi and self-powered. The transceiver is always in the computer, powered or battery, and isn't going into a dock.

                                                      I've got a USB-C port left over for data transfer if I need it.

                                                      What do you think, given the actual use? I don't see what I gain by using a dock.

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                                                          • Post #24

                                                          You can remove the battery while using as desktop replacement and not worry about cycle degradation.

                                                            [deleted] You can remove the battery while using as desktop replacement and not worry about cycle degradation.

                                                            Takes me back to the day when many laptops had "swappable" batteries, easily removeable. Of course, laptop batteries had 1.5 > 2 hours (if you were lucky) of use available back then, so serious workers carried spare or two to get through the day. Saved my bacon a few times.

                                                            Now, not so much. A few "rugged" laptops and gaming laptops have swapable batteries, but for the most part, batteries aren't easily removable these days.

                                                              tomscharbach the biggest gain of a dock is it all stays plugged in when you use it as a laptop. You don't have to take an extra 5 seconds to unplug a charger, , RJ45, HDMI, and x number of USB cables. Pull the USB-C from the dock, take the laptop away, and continue where ever you want.
                                                              That's the only reason I use the dock. Easy setup and teardown. Some of the other Ultrabooks that take a more MacBook approach, a dock is a must. You get 1 or 2 USB-C or Thunderbolt ports at best.