@DataDrake :
It's been pretty clear for months now, that our current method of getting Solus installed on new computers just isn't working at all. Just about all of us are confident that the team is working their butts off, and doing all they can to solve the problem by doing all the things they've been doing in the past. They're heros all.

But it's just as obvious to us all that the same things that they're doing is just not working anymore. Unless something changes soon, I'm concerned that Solus will no longer be the OS we know and love today, and will fade away into the obscurity of failed Linux distros.

Our weekly updates are so carefully created that there's very seldom any problem caused by an update. And except for major upstream changes, like a new version of GNOME or a ubiquitous dependent package, most update problems affect rare cases, not the majority of Solus users.

All of us understand that the most careful release of an update comes with a non-zero (but hopefully small) probablity that it may contain a flaw that managed to get past the curation process. If .ISO files were created often. based on the current Solus repository, I can't see why new users would be in any more danger of running into a problem than the rest of us long-time users are.

Of course, the problem updates are usually anticipared in advance. Just after one of those would not be a good time to update the .ISO files, and doing that should be postponed until we're back to normal. That's just good common sense. But in the worst cases, that's usually resolved by the next one or two updates.

So you're asking for updated ISO files, not a new installation method altogether? Or am I misunderstanding something?

    Staudey So you're asking for updated ISO files, not a new installation method altogether?

    Good question! I think the best answer is both. Updated .ISO files would be great for now, but if nothing were changed, that might mean that we'll be back in this same situation (or worse) in little more than a year. When you find that you're digging yourself deeper into a hole, the best thing to do is stop digging and try something else.

    When I wrote that title, I was thinking of various ideas that might help to solve our current "new user with a new computer" issue. I'd just spent several days trying to help someone get Solus Budgie onto his new laptop. Something that would install current software instead of software that was current more than a year ago seemed to be needed.

    Perhaps an online installer? Maybe make available the bare minimum - kept updated - utility to connect with Solus and install a current version of our default system, after allowing the user to select the desired DE? If that could be made to work, it would also solve the problem of a 600+ package update needed immediately after doing an installation.

    If our installer would let the user select a DE during the installation process, we'd need to support only one .ISO file instead of four. That might take enough pressure off the team to update that file more often. It works elsewhere ... why not here?

    How about having Solus' own Tumbleweed version that's based on a recent update that didn't cause any major problems, and a separate LTS version that would need less frequent security updates. SuSE isn't the only distro that follows that pattern. I've been told that creating the .ISO files is automated, so that updating the Tumbleweed version of Solus from a good update shouldn't be a lot of work for the team.

    I'm sure there are other alternatives that would be easier on the Solus team and yet better for Solus users than what's being done now, but I'll leave those for others to think of. It wouldn't be a crime to adopt a method that's already working well elsewhere.

        WetGeek How about having Solus' own Tumbleweed version that's based on a recent update that didn't cause any major problems, and a separate LTS version that would need less frequent security updates

        interesting. how suse does that is unique. wonder if getting something shored up to not 'cause any major problems' could be too much regression of some packages for comfort. I wonder what the trade off is for accessibility like that? (what I know about isos and installers could fill half a thimble)

          Another view point on this. Why 'force' Solus to work on brand new computers which would need brand new drivers etc. The Solus team cannot test drive new things fast enough. Nowadays even a 5 year pc is fast enough, 'strong' enough and has plenty of memory, and it runs Solus. Totally suitable for most people. Who needs super speeds and super amount of RAM, really? Come on.
          Let it be.

            elfprince For instance, my work horse is a 10 year old NUC. No problems. I am sure most people have fairly dated pcs. Not that many chase after most recent computers.

            • qsl replied to this.

                elfprince If I had to totally guess he (WetGeek) is getting fatigued from all the "can't install from iso" posts. Some thread themes ('i had this in distro x so solus better give it to me now or else') I get fatigued from. Can see some anxiety around here from Solus not being all it can be (that is how I translate this anxiety) by making it hard right now for the state-of-the-art rig owners according to their threads. but when the new .iso comes all this will be forgotten I think. As an Older Rig Owner I got no horse in this one. No super speeds or super RAM here. Solus should get equal love, not for the rigs is doesn't accommodate yet, but for all the ones it does. D

                    brent Can't, nor shouldn't try to, 'win' them all, imo. Just the majority.

                        elfprince now that you say that...there were about 3 distros during my Spring distro auditions that would not install on bare metal including Tumbleweed. there was always some shortcoming in my system, it would tell me in their installer. of course i could shrug and smile and get right back to budgie...don't know if any distro can offer 100% installation compliance for all rigs out there. you have a solid point.

                          elfprince I recently upgraded my PC to an AMD graphics card after all the hassle with installing Nvidia only to be greeted by a blinking white cursor on reboot.

                          I've been down this road before.

                          I wouldn't think of a 4 year card to be "new".

                          Yeah, the installer could use some work.

                              qsl I recently upgraded my PC to an AMD graphics card after all the hassle with installing Nvidia only to be greeted by a blinking white cursor on reboot. I've been down this road before. I wouldn't think of a 4 year card to be "new". Yeah, the installer could use some work.

                              We have all be down this road before, individually and collectively.

                              The kernel often does not contain working drivers that support consumer-level graphics, audio and wifi cards, however old the cards might be, in part because the manufacturers of the cards don't provide Linux drivers and in part because community-developed drivers often don't work well.

                              You raise an interesting question: If your AMD graphics card is four years old, why isn't a working driver included in the 5.13 kernel by this point? It isn't as if 5.13 (released about a year ago) is an ancient kernel version. Chances are that if the AMD card is not supported in 5.13 three years after it was released, it is not supported in 5.15, either.

                              Having been burned a number of times over the years, my response has been to (1) insist on all-Intel, because Intel does a reasonable job of providing current, working drivers for the kernel, and (2) purchase business/enterprise market computers that I know will work with Linux, such as the Latitude laptop I bought in February, which offers a choice of Windows 11, Windows 10 and Ubuntu when configured for purchase.

                              I realize that my purchasing practices, born of frustration with the state of Linux drivers, is not a solution, but a workaround. It does not help anyone wanting to use non-Intel components such as AMD/NVIDIA graphics cards, and avoids the question of who is responsible for ensuring that working drivers are included in the kernel.

                              So who is responsible? It seems to me that (1) component manufacturers should be responsible for providing working drivers for the kernel, and (2) kernel developers/maintainers should be responsible for ensuring that working drivers for all common components are included in the kernel. It seems counter-intuitive to me to put responsibility on distro developers/maintainers (e.g. the Solus team) to provide the drivers.

                              Large, corporate-based distos like Ubuntu, with hundreds of paid employees, might be able to work around the basic issues (component manufacturers don't develop working drivers or make the drivers available through the kernel) by taking the responsibility include working drivers in the distro itself, but that seems to me to be the wrong way to go about it, if for no other reason than that "solution" leaves smaller, community-based distros out in the cold.

                                qsl I guess you'd just need to run sudo usysconf run -f to make it detect and configure your new GPU (and best to remove the proprietary nvidia drivers if you've installed them), but this is getting off-topic.

                                  elfprince Why 'force' Solus to work on brand new computers which would need brand new drivers etc.

                                  Because, for example, not caring for new hardware means that whoever has a brand new pc (for whatever reason) cannot install Solus.

                                  elfprince Who needs super speeds and super amount of RAM, really? Come on.

                                  Gamers. And you cannot have a distro optimized for desktop use without the ability to support one of the main activities done with desktops.

                                        CorvusRuber Because, for example, not caring for new hardware means that whoever has a brand new pc (for whatever reason) cannot install Solus.

                                        Exactly. And for each year that goes by, there will be more and more new bikes as folks buy them, and fewer and fewer old bikes, as folks retire them. I'd like to see Solus keep ahead of the changes, not fall farther behind, which is where we obviously are right now.

                                        If Solus doesn't do something to make things easier for users with new computers to install it, eventually Solus'll just fade away. That would break my heart.

                                            I say: Let the dev team decide. They have eyes, ears. and brains. They also have their own ideas and plans. They also have their own life, school and work to deal with. Why don't you design another 'Solus', and then you can keep it updated any way you desire. Talk is cheap. 😄

                                            WetGeek If Solus doesn't do something to make things easier for users with new computers to install it, eventually Solus'll just fade away. That would break my heart.

                                            A quiet note: Solus is not the only distro with serious upstream issues keeping up with new hardware. Every disto that is dependent on the kernel for hardware drivers has trouble keeping up with new consumer-level computers.

                                            The upstream issues exist because many/most hardware manufacturers do not make developing Linux drivers a priority (if they do it at all, which they don't, in many cases), kernel developers/maintainers do not make keeping kernel drivers for new hardware a priority, and the community does not do much of a job developing manufacturer-independent drivers for hardware.

                                            The Linux driver situation is a mess. Taking a look at the most common issues I see on this and other (e.g. Ubuntu Budgie, Zorin OS, Ubuntu) forums, NVIDIA doesn't seem to be able to develop/maintain Linux drivers without tripping on its own shoelaces, AMD develops/deploys CPU/GPU drivers for the kernel at a snail's pace, and RealTek components almost never work properly without intervention. Meanwhile, the kernel developers/maintainers are in no rush to include drivers for new hardware into the kernel. When it comes to supporting new hardware, Linux always seems to be a day late and a dollar short.

                                            This is nothing new. Linux driver issues have existed since I started using Linux 15-16 years ago, and nothing seems to change.

                                            The bright spot in the picture seems to be Intel, which is reasonably good about keep Linux drivers current and up-to-date, but that bright spot doesn't exist in a vacuum. Intel is motivated to keep drivers for its components current because it has a strong financial incentive to do so. Intel powers most of the servers in use, the server market is a (perhaps the) market segment that is very profitable for Intel, and the server market is dominated by Linux. It is no surprise, accordingly, that Intel does a good job of keeping its drivers current, and is (I think) the largest code contributor to the kernel.

                                            I have a rule of thumb: It is Intel, it will almost certainly work in Linux. If it is not Intel, it is a crapshoot. That's why all of my computers are Intel-only.

                                            Like you, I'd like to see the Solus ISO kept more current (say, twice a year) than it now is, but unlike you, I don't think that would solve the driver issues. Help, but not solve. Like the crazy uncle nobody wants to invite for a holiday dinner, NVIDIA, AMD, RealTek and other Linux indifferent/incompetent component suppliers will always be with us, it seems. and kernel developers/maintainers will continue to focus on market segments where Linux dominates rather than the desktop market.

                                                Personally, I'd like to see automatic ISO generation happening. Maybe once every three months. (I'm also volunteering to help test ISOs if this becomes the case)

                                                Better, I'd like the tools to generate an ISO to be made available. I understand that there has been some controversy about this in the past due to some tricky legal situations some bad actors got us into, but I also struggle with the lack of transparency in the current process. I'd be glad to build an updated ISO myself if I had the tools. In fact, I tried to when a friend couldn't install Solus. I think he's on Pop!_OS now.

                                                CorvusRuber Ah, but gamers do not run the world. Everyday applications do. Every half-decent pc running Solus can handle applications. Games are just icing on the cake, ie not that necessary.

                                                    elfprince The problem isn't specifically gamers, either. It's anyone with a new computer. I don't know the statistics, but I'd bet that most of the people who have new computers and want to use Solus aren't gamers.

                                                    Not being able to install Solus on new systems harm's Solus's reputation. It's a rock solid distro with impressive stability, but that doesn't matter (from a marketing / mind share perspective) if you can only install it on sufficiently old hardware.

                                                        infinitymdm How many people purchase brand new computers every year? Not that many I believe. Many more are happy with 2-10 year old computers, as long as they run well.