(Idea) Update the ISO

Neumie

Every week is overkill.

I think the base mission of the ISO is to be able to get any PC to be able to install Solus as smoothly as possible. The last thing the user should experience is having nothing pop up on screen or having to fall back to the command line to get things working.

It doesn't necessarily have to be perfectly tested in terms of the packages on the ISO. The idea would be that the user installs it, runs an update, restarts then gets on with whatever it is they want to do.

To that end: I would suggest that a new ISO be prepared before the Intel ARC and Radeon RX 7000 series GPUs launch. I don't think the current kernel/Mesa/llvm in the ISO has the bits needed to get those GPUs to a basic working state (though correct me if i'm wrong). So if someone buys a new PC with those bits and uses the current ISO....what actually would happen?

WetGeek

Neumie It doesn't necessarily have to be perfectly tested in terms of the packages on the ISO.

I have a different oppinion. I don't think it helps Solus if new users go through the download and installation process, but then crash their system because of an error that wasn't caught and fixed. That's not what "curated" means. We need to get as close to perfect as we can.

tomscharbach

WetGeek I don't think it helps Solus if new users go through the download and installation process, but then crash their system because of an error that wasn't caught and fixed.

I agree. The installation process is a new user's introduction to Solus. It is the one part of Solus that we should take special care to ensure is absolutely flawless. If my fresh installation the other day is an indication, the team is doing this. If flawless installation means that the ISO is refreshed less often than it otherwise might be, so be it.

Neumie

WetGeek Sorry I probably should have phrased it a bit better.
Yes of course the installer should be as stable as possible. The ISO needs to get the user to a point where they can boot into their newly installed system and run updates. That's the critical functionality of the ISO imho. Make that as smooth and as simple as possible. So CPU support, GPU support and networking are critical for the ISO.

But the entire contents of the ISO outside of that doesn't need to be production ready. e.g. if sound doesn't work on the newest mobo because the kernel on the ISO doesn't have support for the sound chip on your mobo...fine. It's not the end of the world. Updates will fix it. If the power management for your CPU/GPU doesn't work straight from the ISO and your PC is stuck at low clocks....not a problem. It's a minor inconvenience. Run updates and a newer kernel will have that fixed.

Consider: if the RX 7000 series and Intel ARC GPUs released today and someone had them in their PC. Would the current Solus ISO be enough to get a new install completed in a smooth and trouble free way? Or would they need to pass in extra kernel parameters? Or would they be stuck looking at a blank screen?

tomscharbach

Neumie I see your point and it makes sense.

The problem, of course, is that drivers are a kernel issue and the kernel is an ever moving target. If Solus were to release a new ISO today, the kernel would be 5.15 rather than 5.18.

That's not the end of the world (Ubuntu Budgie 22.04 LTS uses the 5.15 kernel, as do most of 22.04 Linux releases), but it highlights the problem with OEM/manufacturer driver support. Intel is good about getting current drivers into the kernel quickly, but other OEM/manufacturers aren't, and community drivers are catch-as-catch-can.

My own view is that Solus should release a new ISO every six months or so, tracking the schedule of point-release distros. I think that is the best that we can expect.

tomscharbach

brent I never heard of the old 4.2 isos giving anyone a headache.

You might want to read back into the threads from 2020 or thereabouts. Discrete graphics card drivers and wifi drivers have been a perennial problem, and that hasn't changed.

Neumie Consider: if the RX 7000 series and Intel ARC GPUs released today and someone had them in their PC. Would the current Solus ISO be enough to get a new install completed in a smooth and trouble free way? Or would they need to pass in extra kernel parameters? Or would they be stuck looking at a blank screen?

Neither is supported by the ISO kernel (5.13) or the current kernel (5.15), so both would have issues running under Solus at this point. It isn't clear to me whether the 5.18 kernel supports either/both or how well. Kernel support for the newest hardware is always a problem in Linux, because OEM's aren't diligent about delivering drivers to the kernel and the kernel always lags.

That is not to disparage/deny your basic point, which is that the Solus ISO needs to be updated relatively frequently (twice a year, maybe) in order to keep up with the pace of hardware development.

Edit/Update: I am scratching my head again this morning, trying to sort out whether or not to install Solus Budgie on my railroad laptop (Latitude 7390), rather than continue to use Windows 11 on that laptop. My brain says "No" (scaling and battery life issues) but my heart says "Yes". However that sorts itself, it reminds me that Linux presents issues beyond the state of the ISO for many users, even those using vanilla hardware.

QTC

I would agree the ISO needs to be updated more frequently then it currently is.

While I agree with @Neumie that features such as sound are not important, it should still probably be kept in mind when releasing an ISO.

Normally when checking hardware compatibility (or debugging hardware issues), I generally suggest downloading the current ISO and testing the Live Environment. But that's not really true for Solus, we've just cross over the year mark since Solus 4.3 was released and there's no sign of 4.4 that I'm aware of.

My thoughts on the ISO issue are two fold:

Maybe have only one ISO that is constantly updated (bi-yearly/quarterly/whatever make sense), and have the others update on the point releases 4.4, 4.5...
Personally I wouldn't care which ISO was chosen. As long as I know my hardware will work, I'll spend the time needed to get my DE of choice installed

How difficult would it be to build/update "minimal" ISO that has an Installer and little to nothing else?
I'm thinking should be possible to make the Installer able to install any Desktop Environment, as well as connecting to the repositories to download and install a fully up to date OS.
While it would be nice to be able to do minimal hardware testing testing of hardware (sound, display...), I question the feasibility of this.

brent

taking what QTC said, and running with it:

I think if I do a fresh install again, I will use a 3-year old live iso usb stick. Who needs a new iso?
(except for those who don't have a 3-year old solus live usb).

On paper at least an old usb or new .iso is identical: after updates they are both equal, no?

tomscharbach

QTC Maybe have only one ISO that is constantly updated (bi-yearly/quarterly/whatever make sense), and have the others update on the point releases 4.4, 4.5 ...

How difficult would it be to build/update "minimal" ISO that has an Installer and little to nothing else?

Both are interesting ideas, and there is a long discussion (from 2019) about these concepts at Minimal option for Solus install?. It is a very interesting thread, although JoshStrobl added a "No" tag and I've heard nothing to suggest that the "No" has changed.

WetGeek

brent Who needs a new iso?

I dunno. Maybe anyone with a new enough computer? As long as you're installing it on a 3-year-old computer, a 3-year-old .ISO file oughta work just fine.

murbert

brent Sometimes new hardware requires a current ISO

brent

WetGeek yeah but how do you know? if current isos are giving old and new computers fits, isn't using an older live usb playing it safe?

WetGeek

brent yeah but how do you know? if current isos are giving old and new computers fits, isn't using an older live usb playing it safe?

Yeah, as long as it boots and your video card likes it. I've installed plenty of Solus systems on VMs using 4.2 .ISOs.

brent

I never heard of the old 4.2 isos giving anyone a headache. As far as adaptability, nothings perfect as you know. Some will see a blank screen with no install no matter what the distro I think.

brent

tomscharbach You might want to read back into the threads from 2020 or thereabouts. Discrete graphics card drivers and wifi drivers have been a perennial problem, and that hasn't changed.

I was here, I read 'em. Had that caveat in my reply, i.e., it could happen to anyone

mike-ward

I thought the install experience was good. The GUI installer in the Live ISO is nicer and easier to follow than other distros (I'm looking at you Fedora). Afterwards, went to the software center and updated. It took a long while to download and install the updates, but it didn't require any intervention on my part.

brent

murbert that would all have to be graphics card/kernel incompatibility I suppose---I mean for the ones that can't boot the .iso...
...for some reason I thought going backwards may improve that situation.

QTC

@tomscharbach thanks pointing me to the discussion, it was an interesting read.

I would like to clarify, when I said Minimal ISO I was thinking:

The ISO would not have a live environment, booting the ISO will bring you directly to an installer
1. The ISO would contain all the packages necessary to install any of the Desktop Environments, then run an update
  Calling this a Minimal ISO maybe misleading, since it would likely be much larger in size the a normal Solus ISO. (Just no Live Environment)
2. The ISO would pull most/all packages necessary to install the selected Desktop Environment form the Repository
  This would basically be an "online installer", personally hate those and would avoid it if possible. Though I can see logic logic behind it when first thing you do is is run an update, and practically your entire install is outdated.
3. The ISO only contains and installs a single Desktop Environment
  Basically what we already have, but without the Live Environment

My though process was that: If the difficulty in providing more frequent ISO updates, was caused by the need to test and ensure the stability/quality of the Live Environment. Then maybe stripping down the ISO to include only an Installer and the Packages needed to install the OS would enable more frequent ISO updates.

Option 3 was not really suggested in my original post, but added it for completeness

tomscharbach

QTC The ISO only contains and installs a single Desktop Environment
Basically what we already have, but without the Live Environment

Thanks for clarifying.

A small technical note: Budgie, Gnome and MATE desktops are somewhat "switch and swap" but Plasma is not: "WARNING: Do NOT attempt to install ANY other desktop environments next to KDE Plasma Desktop. This scenario is NOT supported and you will be told so in no uncertain terms if asking for support." So I suspect that the idea would work with Budgie, Gnome and MATE, but not Plasma.

That being said, I have run across a "roll your own" installer (can't remember which distro) that supposedly uses check boxes to pick (1) which drivers are installed, (2) which DE is installed, and (3) which applications are installed. I looked at it because I thought it might have been designed along the modular "plug and play" model that I've been interested in for years, but it was not. I say "supposedly" only because I read about the distro but wasn't interested enough to try to install it, so I don't know if/how it works.

QTC

@tomscharbach I never considered the possibility of installing multiple Desktop Environments concurrently. I was originally thinking that there would be a radial button, drop down menu, or a list where you can select which version of Solus you would like to install. (Not dissimilar to those Windows ISOs that ask if you want to install Basic, Pro, Enterprise...)

If Solus would want to implement multi DE install, then upon a user selecting an option they could gray out (disable) the incompatible options. Which would basically amount to Install only Plasma, or anything but Plasma.

Though personally I see the install of multiple Desktop Environments as a advanced user feature, that only a subset of users would probably want or actively use.

tomscharbach A small technical note: Budgie, Gnome and MATE desktops are somewhat "switch and swap" but Plasma is not

I'm actually a Plasma user these days. Even though I have a Budgie dual boot, I haven't booted it (or updated it) in more then a half year or so.

Based on my impression of situation, it looks like the instability between plasma and other DE's is mainly due to incompatible configuration settings. I also suspect that some DE's packages react poorly to the presence of Plasma, or the other way around.

That being said, we all share one Repository. To my knowledge when the build server builds a package, it doesn't build said package for a specific Desktop Environment (except for DE specific packages such as the window manager, libraries, and some apps like the settings panel...).

In which case:

The Core of the OS should practically be the same for all DE's (kernel, display server, sound server, SystemD...)
- DE's often share the some of the same default applications as well (LibreOffice, Firefox...).
Creating an ISO that has all the packages needed to install every DE they support should not be technically infeasible, though I question how much complexity this may add and whether it will be worth it or not in the end
If the level of duplication between different Desktop Environments is high as I suspect, the combined ISO would significantly smaller then 7.6GiB (The total for the 4 Solus 4.3 ISOs)

Edits:
- Change: radial button, or a drop down menu >> radial button, drop down menu, or a list
- Fix: quote link should link to post of said quote, not the user account

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