Why no system.devel?

CaptainDatabase

It seems weird to me that there's never anything that tells me to install system-devel. I eventually try to install something that needs it, and after researching whatever cryptic error I get for a while, I eventually remember I need to install system-devel. Thanks to the large number of people encountering the same problem, it's not usually too difficult to find the answer... but the fact that it's such a common problem seems less than ideal.

Is there somewhere that I'm missing that something tells me about system.devel? Could there be an option to install things like this during OS setup?

kyrios

CaptainDatabase It seems weird to me that there's never anything that tells me to install system-devel. I eventually try to install something that needs it

Which is normal since there is absolutely nothing that needs it. system.devel is not a package but a component (or a category if you prefer) that contains the base development tools.

Installing a whole category (with most likely tons of things you won't need) is like using a bazooka to kill a fly. Usually the dependencies are listed somewhere in the doc of the software. Reading the doc can save lot of time rather than rushing then researching whatever cryptic error.

N1X3L

This is where system.devel is recommended. I hope this helps!

CaptainDatabase

N1X3L Thanks! That does help, but I hope my point is still heard that there's a discoverability gap for a user installing the OS to find that.

Staudey

CaptainDatabase Where do you think this should be mentioned ideally? As this only affects people trying to compile software, it shouldn't concern the average user, so I think the thought was that mentioning it in the Help Center article would be enough. But I agree that this question comes up from time to time nonetheless. I just can't think of a better place to put a notice, off the top of my head.

synth-ruiner

Staudey I guess it could be displayed prominently under the "Programming Languages and Tools" category of the software centre. dunno how you'd do it for eopkg through the command line, though!

Staudey

synth-ruiner prominently under the "Programming Languages and Tools" category of the software centre

That would be an idea! Unfortunately that would also mean some restructuring of those pages.

CaptainDatabase

I think the ideal solution for me as a user is for the OS setup wizard to ask if I want to install system dev tools, and do it for me.

If that's infeasible, some other possible solutions for including the tip to manually install:

Write to stdout when eopkg is run
Include in notice shown the first time you use sudo
Or even just the first time you open a terminal at all?

Staudey

CaptainDatabase Write to stdout when eopkg is run
Include in notice shown the first time you use sudo
Or even just the first time you open a terminal at all?

I think all of these options would lead to more confusion for the average user, with little benefit. I kinda liked synth-ruiner's idea because when a user has already navigated to the "Programming Languages and Tools" section of the Software Center you can at least assume they are (somewhat) interested in dev work and/or compiling software. But simply using sudo, eopkg or the terminal is too general of a task to shove a notice about system.devel into the user's face.

Harvey My suggestion instead would be that the more advanced users who are likely to want this anyway, create a custom post-install script to setup things the way they like on fresh installs, so they need not remember sudo eopkg it -c system.devel

100% agree there. My only concern is first discovery. If you have already been exposed to system.devel once, you should either remember it, or automate/document it for yourself. We don't want to babysit users too much; especially when it comes to (supposedly) "advanced" topics like compiling your own software.

Harvey My experience is that people do not read / search before asking anyway, so there would be no reduction in questions asked regarding system.devel which does not actually happen that often anyway.

That's also a good point. Maybe I still have too much faith in the average user 😃

Harvey

In my opinion spamming users about something most people will never use for any given action or adding everything in system.devel to the default install is not acceptable.

Having everything in the system.devel component installed does not magically make everything compile successfully, so this does not solve much for novice users. My experience is that people do not read / search before asking anyway, so there would be no reduction in questions asked regarding system.devel which does not actually happen that often anyway.

A welcome page on first login like other distributions do to point users to forums, bug trackers, help center etc is the least objectionable way to alert new users to the existence of system.devel but I highly doubt it will have much impact or that it is the best usage of developers resources.

My suggestion instead would be that the more advanced users who are likely to want this anyway, create a custom post-install script to setup things the way they like on fresh installs, so they need not remember sudo eopkg it -c system.devel Additionally we should add it to the forum FAQ which no one reads.

pomon

I believe that additional information about system.devel is unnecessary. A person interested in compiling will find all necessary programs, libraries and information needed for this. The best place is an article in the Help Center. This is just my opinion. 😄

WetGeek

Speaking of system.devel ... I tried to install it on my workstation, but can't find it anywhere. Not with eopkg it, eopkg sr, or eopkg info, or even the Software Center. A search there for it returns nothing at all. Am I misspelling it? Or is it simply unavailable at this time?

I remember having installed it on my laptop not very long ago, but I want to use my office and workstation there for any development I attempt.

EbonJaeger

WetGeek sudo eopkg it -c system.devel
The -c is the important part, because it's a category.

WetGeek

EbonJaeger The -c is the important part

Many thanks. I'd forgotten that from the last time I installed it.