wayland and x11 programs

alfisya

snowee These questions are better asked to Budgie devs. I am sure they will never switch to wayland if those usecases are not ready yet.

snowee Most of the Youtube videos I have watched on this topic have pointed out that Wayland is not quite ready for primetime just yet.

I don't know what youtube videos you are watching, but Gnome and Plasma (and many wayland-only tiling and stacking WM) has been on Wayland by default for close to two years. All the papercuts are being fixed. Most basic usecase (Browser, video, Office apps) are well supported, even with NVIDIA gpu.

Gaming via wine/proton will still use xwayland because the wayland driver for wine is not ready (It is there already on wine 10.0). So far it is been working fine for me, as in no difference with X11 whatsoever.

⚠️ RANT BELOW ⚠️

I honestly don't get this constant worrying about something switch to "X" technology behind the scene. I guess because the way open source development is (which is in the open public), leads to many voices being echoed. We don't know which one is the one we should listen. If you like a project, you use that project, please trust the devs. If you don't like/trust the devs the decision, just use another project. It is that easy.

Staudey

snowee Has there been extensive testing already done for Steam Proton gaming in a pure Wayland environment?

As per what @EbonJaeger wrote above it's not a "pure" Wayland environment, since there is still XWayland.

Personally I've been using a GNOME Wayland session for months now and had no issues with Steam Proton games.

snowee Will the change to Wayland affect gaming on Steam in an adverse manner?

Haven't had any issues yet, but its possible that some games may be problematic. Since Wayland is the new standard though, the Steam and Steam Proton devs are surely working to make everything as compatible as possible.

snowee How will Wayland impact ordinary users on a daily basis? (e.g. Browsing, Netflix, productivity, etc)

Not

zmaint

Axios I've tried it several times, still kinda crap for gaming especially with nvidia. Still some weirdness in windows with right click context boxes being black randomly (not drawing unless you then scroll over them). I did see that the latest version of wine is supposed to support Wayland natively. Proton still does not that I am aware of. Until the Xwayland compatibility layer is no longer needed, I don't think Wayland will be "ready" as a true X replacement.

brent

snowee . Has there been any major breakthrough made very recently that has shifted this thinking ?

I tried Wayland in Arch Cinnamon recent;y and it was a go**amed train wreck. It was completely broke, display manager dead, programs not running....my god this was just three weeks ago, I understand your concerns. I simply don't get it.
I know KDE and Gnome work for most, but nothing else seems to wear it well...this whole debacle is because RHEL-hats decided to back off on X11 development. Do I have that right?
Maybe my experience was an anomaly? Maybe it wasn't?
Poor 1st impression for me.
Right now I have to trust Josh (wayland Budgie). I've always found he makes sound decisions.

alfisya

brent I tried Wayland in Arch Cinnamon recent;y and it was a go**amed train wreck.

Of course it was, it is still an experimental session. Try the one that's not experimental for fair assesment. Also on Arch??? Test Cinnamon with Linux Mint, that's where its best at.

brent this whole debacle is because RHEL-hats decided to back off on X11 development. Do I have that right?

Wrong. X11 is not built with modern use case in mind. Trying to fit that is just going to be a hack on top of a hack. AFAIK, nobody want to touch that (even if get paid). What modern use case? Multi monitor setup, High refresh rate, Fractional scaling, HDR and so on.

brent RHEL-hats decided to back off on X11 development. Do I have that right?
Maybe my experience was an anomaly? Maybe it wasn't?

Again, try it with the one that is not experimental; Plasma, Gnome, Sway, Hyprland, Labwc (We have all of those in repo).

Sebastian

Wayland in Cinnamon is experimental. Not ready for usage. To get a fair Impression you should test Plasma wayland or GNOME wayland.

brent

Sebastian Wayland in Cinnamon is experimental. Not ready for usage. To get a fair Impression you should test Plasma wayland or GNOME wayland.

thanks. but will wait for the budgie rollout. that it's pretty flawless on two DE's makes me feel better.

brent

alfisya Of course it was, it is still an experimental session. Try the one that's not experimental for fair assesment.

i really woulda thought, however. that when Cinnamon devs meant 'experimental' that could be translated as 'usable.' In that case 'experimental' meant non-usable. hence my impressions.
No desire to try Gnome Wayland or KDE Wayland or Gnome and KDE.
I've been wonderfully at home with X11 Budgie Solus since 2017. Never seen fit to change it up since it's always worked the last most of a decade...
...Will wait for the Great Strobl Wayland 1.0 Budgie and go from there 🙂
I am never opposed to thrilling times @alfisya

joluveba

brent i really woulda thought, however. that when Cinnamon devs meant 'experimental' that could be translated as 'usable.' In that case 'experimental' meant non-usable. hence my impressions.

I think that you are spoilt by Solus 😉 . Let me quote myself from another thread:

Solus Xfce beta is like the experimental Solus Plasma ISO, before Solus Plasma was officially released. It was supposedly experimental, but I didn't have a single issue with it.

By the way, I am writing this on Wayland, Solus KDE. There are a few issues with a few applications, but on the other hand, on Wayland there are some options missing from X11, like mouse scrolling speed.

zmaint

snowee

Limited Steam testing with Solus Plasma on Wayland with an Nvidia 4070s. Not super great. Proton is not wayland native, needs xwayland. Does not always like to draw things like launchers and such. Does not always quit a game clean. Has noticeable performance issues (ie slower with some random weirdness).

X is supported until like 2035 or something if I remember right. It's not going away tomorrow, they're just not actively developing from what I understand. While I agree X needs replaced, and that Wayland seems to be currently the best option, I am a bit underwhelmed with its state of readiness based on how long it has been developed and how many main stream distros are trying to use it as default.

I think the easiest indicator for me is everything just works on X. I can tell fairly quickly if I'm using Wayland or not just by the random weirdness I encounter. I think it will be "ready" when a user cannot objectively tell the difference.

Staudey

zmaint Proton is not wayland native, needs xwayland.

Wine is currently in the process of enabling Wayland-native functionality (some of this is already part of the latest releases). This will then soon be picked up by Proton. The early support already works for some things, but in my testing is not quite ready for prime time yet. Should only be a matter of months though, so I think definitely in time for, say, the Wayland edition of Budgie, or a complete removal of the X11 session from GNOME.
I also don't personally see huge issues with something using XWayland. What are the disadvantages of running under XWayland? Performance issues? Windowing-related quirks? I've read about input latency problems, so maybe that? I haven't noticed any significant differences myself.

zmaint X is supported until like 2035 or something if I remember right

Where did you read this? I tried searching for things like "X11 support end date" and browsing the X.org webpage, but I couldn't find anything about support guarantees and associated dates.

zmaint

Staudey Man I wish I had bookmarked it, it was on Reddit I believe. They linked the info from Redhat about support dates. If I come across it again I will definitely post it.

I'll test Wayland again on Plasma. Last time it was a mess, about 2 maybe 3 months ago... especially for gaming. I'll try it again when I have some time this week hopefully.

zmaint

Staudey This is not the exact article, but it's kinda close. https://www.redhat.com/en/blog/rhel-10-plans-wayland-and-xorg-server Essentially they are not going to ship xorg starting in 2025 with RHEL10. They do intend to support it for the entire life cycle of RHEL9, which ends in 2032. From what I remember I had read previously, it will essentially be in maintenance mode from 2025-2032 with only bug/security fixes being done as needed.

I don't have an account, but there is supposedly a discussion here: https://access.redhat.com/discussions/7046798

I find that original article and I'll post it.

Axios

Lots of informative information to think about.
Thanks for all the replies

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